Kyle Hamer: (00:03)
Hello, welcome to the summit, the podcast where we bring you the knowledge and insights from industry leaders and professionals. No fluff, no double digit overnights growth schemes. We’re having real conversations with real people to get you real answers about how to do the day to day things to grow your business. Today’s guest and my good friend joining me on the summit is Kathy Crawford. Kathy, how are you this morning?
Kathi Crawford: (00:26)
I’m great, Kyle. Good to be on this podcast with you.
Kyle Hamer: (00:30)
Hey, we’re, I’m, I’m excited to have you. For those of you who don’t know, Kathy, Kathy is an executive coach and a career leader who helps organizations put together, uh, was organizational development plans in career pathing like Kathy, tell me a little bit more about what you do. I mean, you’ve been my executive coach for the last, I don’t know, three, four years. But outside of that, I still have a lot to learn about the capabilities you have.
Kathi Crawford: (00:56)
Yeah, there’s a lot, there’s a lot of little playgrounds that I play in. Uh, but the common theme is they all have to do with people. And that’s why I called my company people possibilities. I have a long career in a human resources. And what I enjoy the most about what I do is really helping people and organizations transform. And so I provide consulting services with that in mind as well as do a one-to-one coaching and leadership development.
Kyle Hamer: (01:29)
Yeah, that’s awesome. Well, and I’ve been the benefactor of a couple of year. Your courses you’ve put together, you have taught at colleges, you’ve taught adult learning, what’d you call it? Adult learning. Yeah. Adult learning, career advancement, certification courses. Uh, all around today’s topic, which is leadership. I mean, we really want to talk about leadership and what it means to be more as a leader. [inaudible] exactly. Yeah. Leadership is a hot topic right now. I mean, it, everybody across the world is like, be a better leader, be a better leader. And I think of the great people who have this kind of, this lore, you got the Winston Churchill’s and maybe your FTRs. You’ve got the, uh, the, you know, the, we’ve Romanticized Bill Gates and Warren Buffett and Steve Jobs, but really what does it mean to be a good leader?
Kathi Crawford: (02:25)
Um, and there’s a lot of opinions out there of what, and the answer is to that question. Uh, ultimately what makes a good leader is someone who inspires and motivates and encourages growth in other people. In other words, W W we are not leaders unless we are, um, helping others to grow. Um, just by having a title, you know, it doesn’t give you that leadership capability capability of, um, truly, uh, helping people be good at what they want to do, good at what they do. Do, you know, good in life. And there’s all kinds of ways to be a leader and you don’t really even need a title to be a leader. And that’s a lot of what I teach is, um, uh, you know, in, in, in all of what I do, it’s individually, we can be a leader and we can be more in what we’re doing and it, and it has to do with really kind of finding meaning in, in the struggle of what we’re doing and what our core purpose is.
Kyle Hamer: (03:35)
That is, that is a meaty answer to start us off when you, when, you know, when I think about leaders and I think about the, the folks that I mentioned before, and then I think about the, the way you just described it, there seems to be a pretty big chasm or gap between
Kathi Crawford: (03:54)
I am myself
Kyle Hamer: (03:56)
or the person who’s a janitor and cleaning the toilets can be a leader versus somebody who’s got authority and power. Exactly. In, uh, say I’m, you know, saying the president of the United States or I’m a, uh, a spiritual leader somewhere, nurse, you know, a pastor.
Kathi Crawford: (04:13)
Yeah. Well, what we do that’s not necessarily leadership, isn’t it?
Kyle Hamer: (04:23)
So why are these things so commonly misconstrued? I mean a lot of people, I want to advance my career, I need to become a manager because if I’m a manager, then I’m a leader. Why is it white? I mean, why is that so so hard that this leadership thing isn’t really come with a title or,
Kathi Crawford: (04:39)
right. Right. I think I, well, I think that like anything, um, you know, what’s in the culture or how things are perceived as sometimes how they are believed to be. Uh, and in truth, you know, we, we all have that opportunity to step up and to, and to do what we need to do to be successful in our lives. Okay. And in that, you are a leader, right? If you’re, if you’re grabbing a hold of that brass ring and taking charge of your life, uh, you are a leader and that oftentimes gets, gets missed in. Um, yeah, what we’re talking about in the common language of leadership. And so, um, yeah, I am seeing that authority and power is one way to lead, but it’s not a demonstration of pure leadership and what I’m talking about when, I mean, be more,
Kyle Hamer: (05:30)
yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it’s interesting you just said that authority and power is a way to lead. And when I went through one of the, well actually I went through the University of Houston. Was it emerging new leaders or emerging managers?
Kathi Crawford: (05:43)
Cause it was the um, uh, called empower and yeah, leadership program.
Kyle Hamer: (05:50)
So the leadership program, one of the things that I thought was fascinating is we all have our own style of management, right? Some people are hands on, some people are authority and power, some people use influence, some people blended together, some people are like, I don’t care, just don’t die. Um, but there are really different management styles and different situations. Right. Kind of call for those.
Kathi Crawford: (06:14)
Kyle Hamer: (06:15)
Can you get all just for our, for our listeners, lay the framework. I think there was wizard five different, five different types of, of management styles, if I remember.
Kathi Crawford: (06:24)
So yeah. And it comes from an article written about emotional intelligence by Daniel Goldman and it’s from the Harvard business reviews. So your listeners can look that article up. Um, and in the article where it’s describing what is emotional intelligence, it also shares, okay, here’s, I think there’s seven different types of leadership, um, that he has identified there, which I can’t remember all of them, but I would say that, um, you know, some of the Paas, he says some of these are positive, some of these are negative. So for example, being a coaching, a type leader is seen as a positive, whereas being a coercive leader is seen as a negative. And there might be certain situations in which you need to be coercive, but those should be, um, short term and minimal. That shouldn’t be your go to style, uh, that you can actually get more from, uh, possibly being a coaching type leader than you could from being coercive or one.
Kathi Crawford: (07:26)
Another one is called a pace setter. Um, which is, is seen as a negative. But you know, sometimes we have due dates that we have to meet and you have to put everybody on a schedule to work, you know, 12 hours a day to meet it. But if you’re doing that all the time, then that’s not going to work. That’s not a long term leadership strategy that’s going to be effective. And in emotional intelligence, we talk about the four competencies. Um, you know, your self awareness, your social awareness, your relationship, and then ultimately socially how you’re interacting, which all comes to play through how you’re responding to your environment and the idea that you have, you have the ability to choose your reaction. And so, um, same as leadership. You can be the style you need to be. Um, uh, even though it may not be your natural style, you can adapt that, but you have to have that self awareness and that social awareness first even start to make a change.
Kyle Hamer: (08:34)
Read the room, right?
Kathi Crawford: (08:36)
Yeah. Yeah. And give feedback because one of the things that leaders who get the title tend to do is, okay, well now I’m the leader so I don’t need you to tell me what to do. And yet the growth as a leader is actually being open for people to share with you. Oh, I noticed that you had a little frustration in your voice yesterday in the meeting. You know, what was going on and to, to help you be introspective in how you’re coming across because your intent, let me tell you, does not equal your impact,
Kyle Hamer: (09:19)
man. I’ll tell you what, I’m not even just for the, um, oh man. And I hate saying ums on air, but for the, for the, for the what you just said, your intent does not, what does encompass, how did you say it? Your intensive, not equal doesn’t equal your outcome or your, yeah. Your, your, your impact. Yeah. You talk about, uh, talk about tremendous applications across a person’s life. If you think about dealing with children or, or
Kathi Crawford: (09:55)
Kyle Hamer: (09:56)
driving down the road who maybe cut you off like you just, you just think about the behaviors that we exemplify. The intention,
Kathi Crawford: (10:05)
Kyle Hamer: (10:07)
Does not equal our outcome or even our, our impact. It’s just,
Kathi Crawford: (10:12)
yeah, let me just slow down for a minute. Well, and, and it’s true in life. We’re not always at 100%. I don’t know about you, but I mean, I am not perfect and I have good moments and I have bad moments and there are all kinds of factors coming at me, um, that influenced that. And so I’m hopeful that the people around me who are observing what I’m doing and how I’m coming across with B okay. With sharing, um, gosh, you know, how, how I might’ve been coming across yesterday because I had maybe something going on in my personal life that was, um, emotional, you know, and maybe I wasn’t up to my game. And so it’s not that [inaudible] I don’t have a game. I mean, I have a game, you know, I’m pretty good at it, but every day, you know, the consistency can be off a little bit. And so without feedback, I’m not going to know that sometimes. Okay.
Kyle Hamer: (11:20)
How do you get there? I mean, if you think about folks who have either, um, come up through the ranks and maybe they’ve been given leadership through a title and position versus maybe somebody who is just [inaudible] is a leader of a pack inside of a, a group or a set of peers or somebody who is really a 360 degree leader, maybe they’re at the bottom and they’re doing really good job leading their life, cleaning up, leading across
Kyle Hamer: (11:50)
How do you develop the level of candor are required for, for what you just talked about?
Kathi Crawford: (11:57)
Yeah. Yeah. And of course there’s, there’s many books out there on that particular concept. In fact, there’s one called free radical candor. That’s a good, that’s a good book. Um, so what we’re talking about is creating truly creating an open door. So a lot of leaders will say, oh, my door is always open. Come in and tell me anything that you have on your mind. And the truth is, is that they haven’t created a relationship for that to actually happen. So it’s one thing to say this is available to you. It’s a, it’s another thing to actually live it and, and demonstrate it. And so, um, so the way that you do that is that you reach out first. You don’t wait for people to come to you. You find ways, two, check in with people and ask, how am I doing? What could I do better?
Kathi Crawford: (12:54)
What could I do differently? What do you need from me? What obstacles are in your way that I can help you remove? You know, you ask these questions and at first they’re going to be a little bit like, ah, yeah, I’m not going to tell you that, you know, so before maybe you dive into those questions, you’re getting to know this person, you’re getting to know this person as a human being and what they’re interested in. And they’re, you know, they’re their life in general and what matters to them. Um, so you create the relationship and uh, you can ask the question. So that’s a one to one a situation and it’s something that we’re always working on. So, um, there are ways to put that in, in organizations that can be structured and you can get help because there is an expectation that you meet once a year and now even mid year or quarterly or on a monthly basis, those things are set as expectations. Um, but then you have to ask yourself, how am I gonna be in that, in that meeting or that situation? What is my agenda? What are my questions? What are the things I really want to know? How, how do I want that person to kind of walk away feeling as a result of us getting together?
Kyle Hamer: (14:16)
Look before, before I get into some of the tactics of how you actually execute that and create that space. That sounds a lot like stuff that, hey, you’ve kind of got to be an extrovert in order to be a good leader.
Kathi Crawford: (14:27)
This is not true initially. This is not true, although I think it is a belief that’s out there. So I’m glad you brought that up. Um, uh, introvert or extrovert, who makes the better leader?
Kathi Crawford: (14:44)
The answer is both. The difference is the approach which an extrovert would take versus an introvert, right? In terms of, um, uh, how they might approach that relationship. And, um, what we know from the research is that most people are, uh, seen as, um, more socially energetic, but most of us need or get our energy elsewhere and not from people. So even though you may appear socially energetic, does it mean that you get all of your energy from being around me? You know, and, um, and, and then there are people who are of the style of being, um, less, uh, less socially energetic or what we’re calling introverts, right? Um, so getting up in front of a large group of people, it doesn’t mean that they can’t do that, but they certainly would like to have some preparation. They don’t want to be doing that extemporaneously every single day.
Kathi Crawford: (15:51)
That would create a lot of stress, but it doesn’t mean that they can’t do it when they need to. And this is all about that self-awareness, right? Is just knowing, what am I an introvert? Am I an extrovert? Where do I get my energy? How do I need to prepare for this conversation? As an introvert, I need a certain setting. I need to maybe have more preparation, I need to figure out and think and process it a little bit more before I actually do it. And all of that is okay. Right. I see a lot of leaders out there of both styles being very effective.
Kathi Crawford: (16:31)
It’s interesting. We keep coming back to self awareness. It almost sounds like did, this is probably way too broad of a statement [inaudible] but it almost sounds like you really can’t lead others until you can lead yourself, which, which is completely cliche. Hmm. Um, no, but there’s some truth in that. Uh, and again, I would say we’re not perfect. Sometimes we get the role before we get the self awareness and then something happens and we’re not, maybe we’re getting some feedback that we’re not doing as well in building those relationships. And hopefully, uh, as human beings, we take a look at that and we say, you know what, I want to get better at that because really I believe human beings want to do their very best. They want to put their best foot forward. Want to, um, to want to grow. And particularly adult learners, uh, you mentioned. Yeah, I, I do a lot of adult learning in the sense of what I know about adult learners is they want to take what they’re learning and apply it. They want to use it. They don’t want to just go and learn something to learn something. They really have the interest in applying. And so
Kyle Hamer: (17:50)
when they typically, when they recognize that there’s a gap or there’s something that’s out there that they, that they want to learn more of, I’m gonna look up a class or look up away or tell their, you know, tell someone, hey, what do you, you know, can you be my accountability partner on this? Or can you help me find some resources to help me grow this? I feel like people ultimately have that self interest to, to grow as human beings. [inaudible] probably said it the best. And, and you know, he wrote the book of the art of War. Yeah. A long time ago. And you would think, well, what does art of war have to do with leadership? And I think one of the most famous things that he talks about is if you know yourself and you know your enemy, you’ll win every time. [inaudible] if you know yourself, don’t know your enemy, you’ll win half the time.
Kyle Hamer: (18:47)
You don’t know yourself and you don’t know your enemy, you’ll lose every time. That’s true. And when you think about leadership, right, it doesn’t necessarily mean that the person you’re working with or the person you’re, um, yeah, if the, the person that’s that’s part of your life or the you’re trying to lead, it’s not that they’re your enemy, but if you want a positive outcome, right? Yeah. You’re not going to actually get a positive outcome if you don’t know yourself and your doubly not going to get a good outcome if you don’t know them. Yeah. Right. And if you don’t know them and you don’t know yourself, everybody’s in trouble.
Kyle Hamer: (19:28)
I thought just came to me as you were sharing that. Is that okay? Cause you, your first question was kind of what makes a good leader. And I said, you know, it’s how you motivate or, or, yeah, how you’re developing your team and isn’t it great if you as a leader can actually help your team increase their self awareness through increasing your own? Right. So I think that in leadership to your point, it’s we all want to increase our self awareness and if we’re helping our team do that, then they’re growing as well. So, um, yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s really fascinating when you think about helping other people grow. There’s, there’s two schools of thought on leadership and how to get the most out of your life [inaudible] school of thought a is [inaudible] work on everything that you suck at and make yourself better at it. That’s the best way to show. Okay, cool. A thought too is ignore the stuff you’re terrible at and triple down on only the things you’re great at. Okay. Yeah, I’ve heard that, which is,
Kathi Crawford: (20:48)
Kyle Hamer: (20:50)
which is it that’s best in being self aware? Is it better for me to know, hey, I’m terrible at something and just to walk away? Or is it or is it better for me to know, hey, I think I’m good at that. I don’t really want to improve at it and just move on. Like what?
Kathi Crawford: (21:02)
Yeah, it’s a great question. Okay. So first of all, I think we need to get rid of the word weaknesses. Um, because I would say that there are things you’re interested in and things you are not interested in and there are skills you’ve developed because of that interest and their skills that you have not because you don’t have that interest. So in other words, we have a natural sort of affinity or strength that we’ve developed. Um, because that’s where we want to be good at. Like we have that intention. Our perception is that we want to be good at it. For example, um, I am that high social, a social energy person. I put a lot of effort in, in creating relationships. That is something I really enjoy. And yet, the first part of my career I was in finance and accounting. I almost have an accounting degree and luckily graduated with an economics degree.
Kathi Crawford: (22:02)
I can do the numbers. I can do them. I’m pretty good at it. However, I do not get any pleasure from that and being focused on those details. So, so, um, you know, so I think I wouldn’t call that a weakness. I would just say, look, there are better people to do the numbers and I want to be able to interact with them and I want to be able to understand them and there’s a certain amount of knowledge I need for that to be successful as a business leader. Um, and I can do that. I can read a P and l I can understand the cashflow. I know I have to build a customer. I’ll never be able to survive, you know, I can do all of that, but that is not an area I want to play in all the time. So when I call that a weakness, I would call that a lack of interest.
Kathi Crawford: (22:53)
Where my strengths are is, is with the people. So what I want to do is I want to find the right people who can help me in the areas in which I’m not strong or I don’t have that high interest in. Okay. So each and every one of us has an area in which we don’t really want to play or we’re not the best person to do it. And it would behoove us to find the people that can support us. So it really does take a village to be effective. You’re just not going to be good at everything, ah, or, or is interested in everything. And so there, that’s where we’re in lies. This idea of focusing on strengths. But I would caution that we don’t want to just throw away areas we’re not interested in and say, well, I’m never going to learn how to look at numbers because I really, I’m just not good at it. No, you kind of need to know how to run your bank account. You kind of need to know how to like put money aside for retirement. There’s some things that you need to know that has to do with money and numbers and so on, so, so you know, you can be, uh, able to, I think you’re able to approach learning what you need to learn in areas that are not as, as what you deem as strengths. Um, to the extent that you need that and you can use your strengths to get there. Okay.
Kyle Hamer: (24:19)
Hmm. That’s a, that’s a, that’s a really middle of the road answer. But you know, I think that that’s important when you think about being more in cultivating a space of safety or a leadership. Now, you know, I think organizationally, oftentimes we think about leadership as manager, executives, director levels, but there’s a, there’s a leadership that happens just from, from creating a, a place of safety and a place of truly understanding where somebody is at. I mean, you, you talked about it earlier about being intentional and getting to know somebody, getting to know somebody requires a level of vulnerability. Not everybody’s comfortable with, right? Like it’s true. Yes. There’s, there’s, there’s a very true, I’ve wondered and wondering out loud, but I’ve often wondered if the great leaders, not the, not the leaders that had really good PR campaigns, but the great leaders, if there wasn’t a level of intimacy that people actually understood their worst, but it made them also appreciate their best.
Kathi Crawford: (25:33)
Yeah. I think that, um, we have all kinds of leaders and um, okay, ask me that question one more time because I had something on the tip of my tongue and then I lost it.
Kyle Hamer: (25:48)
Oh look, I just, the reason I said that is, is there’s been a lot of biographies. W We as a society are enamored with Steve Jobs I’m, I’m enamored with as well. But then you look at like when staff,
Kathi Crawford: (26:00)
he wasn’t necessarily the best leader is what we’re talking about, but, but for what he was leading, he was the right person for the job. That’s right. Right. He transformed an industry or created one. I mean, you know, you can’t, I mean,
Kyle Hamer: (26:16)
yeah, you can’t get them without being a little bit of a little bit authoritative. Yeah. I mean, he leaned into quite a few of those styles that might be perceived as negative.
Kathi Crawford: (26:27)
I mean, how he treated people was not necessarily the greatest. Um, and yet there are a lot of people that would say, um, he was the best leader they ever had because they learned so much from him. Right? Or they got the right opportunity that they wouldn’t have gotten anywhere else because of his, you know, so there were other aspects of him that people grew from
Kyle Hamer: (26:50)
and um, and he was the right person for that job. No doubt. Well, look in and then I guess, you know, building on that, lately my music has been Churchill mostly because he wrote his own narrative and it’s like, what was the truth about this guy? But as you peel back the layers, here’s a gentleman who drank too much. He smoked way too much. For all intents and purposes, he was not hear anything. But for him to be able to lead a nation, right, there’s a certain level of people appreciated him at his worst. Right? Because he lost, he lost the war in India. Most people don’t talk about it ever before. Every part of the World War II you did.
Kathi Crawford: (27:32)
And just what you’re, what you’re uncovering though, it’s, it’s, and it’s so true. So we’re in perfectly perfect, you know, in the sense of, um, right person for the right time. Yeah. You know, it’s going to come up. And um, and that in itself that there were aspects of, of for him, um, for Winston Churchill that, thank goodness he was in that job. I’m doing my thing because of the leadership skills he brought to that challenge. Right.
Kyle Hamer: (28:02)
Yeah. So for the people that want to be more as a leader, right. I guess, you know, you, you, we all may not be destined to be Steve jobs or Winston Churchill, right. But those of us that are in leadership positions, are those, those that have been bestowed with that or entrusted with that by either a corporation or a company or just other people around them. There’s a level of self-awareness and just being yourself. That’s part of how you, how you lead. Right. It’s just, it’s, it’s, there’s like I, I keep coming back to, I think it’s intimacy, and maybe that’s the wrong word, but there’s really that there’s a balance between intimacy and vulnerability that needs,
Kathi Crawford: (28:44)
yeah. You just brought up something really important.
Kyle Hamer: (28:48)
Yeah. As a point. And that is,
Kathi Crawford: (28:51)
um, the, the, the self-awareness and being yourself. A lot of times when I, um, either in my coaching one-to-one or in, in the leadership development world,
Kyle Hamer: (29:02)
people come in and they say,
Kathi Crawford: (29:05)
you know, I need to be this leader. This is not working. I need to be this leader, you know, like this leader out here. And um, no, you need to be yourself as a leader. You need to be who you are as a leader and let’s explore that because if you try to be Steve jobs or ones to Churchill, that is not going to work. Uh, what we want in, in what we’re talking about here and I’m glad that you kinda kind of, it brought that home really is self awareness is being who you are, not about changing you. And yes, we are tapping into strengths or also willing to take a look at the things that we don’t do as well or we’re not as interested in. And we’re gonna be open to figuring out some solutions for that so that overall we can be the leader that’s needed for the challenge in which we have put ourselves.
Kyle Hamer: (30:06)
Yeah. But if I’m self aware and there are people around me that, that I see and I appreciate that they have skills, capabilities, or interests as we talked about that I don’t, and we need those skills, interests, others. How do I, how do I create a space or how do I, how do I get the most, how do I be more so that I’m not
Kathi Crawford: (30:27)
Kyle Hamer: (30:28)
by that other person?
Kathi Crawford: (30:29)
Yeah. Yes. Okay. Well, the core of that is your ego. Now Ego, we need an Ego, right? We need to feel confident in who we are. We need to, we need to know that, you know, when we set about doing something, we have that competence at ego to achieve it. Um, and at the same time, the ego is challenged when others might sign more than us or we have to admit that we need that hell or you know, there’s something that says, oh well you can’t do it all after all. So, you know, um, we have to build our capability. Oh, recognizing the auto-response too ego. And is it something that’s supporting us or is it something that’s not supporting us? Right. If I hold on to that, do you know, is it, is it going to really help me in the long run? What can I let go? Cause I have a defense mechanism too. I’m, I’m, I’m really confinement. Of course I’m competitive. And when somebody comes at me and says, oh, Kathy, you did that wrong. You know, I have this little thing inside of me that’s like, how dare you tell me I did that wrong, you know?
Kathi Crawford: (31:51)
Yeah. And I have to check myself on that. Right. I could, I could react in that way. I could like say, say just what I said. Right. I can just yell at, right, okay. Who are you? You know? And I don’t, because now, I mean I’ve grown into this more, there are times and probably will be times I’ll do that, but at the same time I have to look at myself and say, why am I having that reaction? Why am I feeling threatened? What can I learn from this? Rather than being so walled up and defensive, you know, that somebody is threatening me, uh, or I feel that, you know, kind of being threatened. So, so [inaudible] I think it’s a challenge for everyone, you know, to some level, um, uh, being strong in our well being strong in what we’re trying to accomplish. And at the same time being vulnerable to your point enough to let, let some difference in opinion or a different way of doing something, kind of come in and challenge that so that we can have a better result overall. And there can be growth.
Kyle Hamer: (33:05)
I don’t, I don’t, I don’t know if there’s a better way to, to wrap up or a better way to leave you with, with a thought other than, you know, the court it’d be more is, is to be you to be vulnerable. And to be self-aware and that, um, [inaudible]
Kathi Crawford: (33:20)
yeah, you got it. Just sitting there listening, right? Oh yeah. Yeah. I hope that’s helpful for your listeners.
Kyle Hamer: (33:30)
I mean, I, I, you know, I think there are, there are some articles and things that were referenced, the, the book that we should post the link to and the HBR article we should post the link to those things should be all in our, uh, on our, our blog site or a, in the transcript. We may even sneak him into the, to the summary, to the description of the particular episode. But I really want to thank you for coming and talking with us about being more as a leader and exploring just topically how you get to first base, which is, you know, got to get in the game first. And once you’re in the game, what are the rules? What’s, what’s the, what’s the game really about? And self-awareness, vulnerability and um, not having to have a superman complex. Those, uh, those seem to be the critical elements to it, to the first step towards being more,
Kathi Crawford: (34:19)
yeah. Yeah. And I have a personal purpose exercise too that I can, I can give you to post. Alright. We’ll want to explore, want to explore that a little bit more.
Kyle Hamer: (34:31)
Great. Okay. Well Kathy, thanks for thanks for being on the show. If somebody wants to get ahold of you, how can they, how can they find you?
Kathi Crawford: (34:39)
Yeah, so, um, if they can find me on Linkedin, uh, I’d love to connect up with people. My email is kateCrawford@peoplepossibilitiesdotcomonmywebsitepeoplepossibilities.com. Um, what else? Uh, I also have a uh, program that, uh, that I’ve created called the world inside you and we are putting up a website for that as well, although there is information on that, on the people possibilities website, um, for them to explore that as well.
Kyle Hamer: (35:14)
Awesome. Well, we’ll get all those links posted and we’ll make sure we share that out. I really appreciate you being on our podcast today, Cathy, and look forward to having you back talking about other challenges leaders face or even getting a little bit more into the world inciting. Thanks for being a guest today. Okay. We’ll talk soon. [inaudible].